[logback-dev] on immutability

Joern Huxhorn jhuxhorn at googlemail.com
Tue Feb 24 14:05:57 CET 2009

Ceki Gulcu wrote:
> Hello Joern,
> Joern Huxhorn wrote:
>> Ok, I *do* understand what immutability is *supposed* to be about but
>> reality is quite different. In the two languages that I know best - Java
>> and C++ - constness and immutability can be circumvented easily.
> The fact that immutability can be circumvented by technical means is
> in my opinion inconsequential.
Depends on your point of view.

C++ is just a very thin layer on top of assembly and a void pointer just
points to arbitrary memory so obviously the ability to say "this memory
is actually a ..." is needed. And casting an XYZ pointer back to a void
pointer is comparable to using Object in Java.

One can disable the ability to use reflection for this kind of dark
magic using security constraints. Because of this, I think everything is
OK with Java either.
>  Marking an object instance immutable
> conveys intent. You can build additional logic on top of the
> immutability hypothesis. If someone intentionally circumvents
> immutability, the ensuing problems are theirs, not ours.
That's exactly what I was trying to say in the following paragraph.
Using an ImmutableLoggingEvent interface should be sufficient to mark
that intent. Casting from ImmutableLoggingEvent to MutableLoggingEvent
is similar to using reflection magic.


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